negotiation (or, avoiding the numbers)

Recently, I asked the boys to "help clean up" the toy explosion family room. We all do it together. 

Crappy Boy asks:

He asks me how many toys he has to pick up. He wants a specific number.

But I will not give him a number. I know better. I'm way ahead of him. I know if I say a number there will be negotiations over that number.

Negotiations must be avoided.  

Kids bolster their negotiations with repetition and persistence and annoyingness. It is incredibly powerful. And annoying.

They always win. 

So because of this, I have to stick with the gray area of "help me clean" and "eat until you are full" and stuff like that. No numbers.

He wasn't always quite so skilled though.

I remember back before he understood numbers he was quite a poor negotiator in fact:

My husband and I always secretly laughed over this. How toddlers want to decide things for themselves, even when it sometimes winds up being a worse choice than the original offer. 

Crappy Baby is at that age now. 

So thinking I'm all clever, I try it out on him:

He pauses thoughtfully for a moment. 

And then answers:

He knows better and won't give me a number. Way ahead of me. Sigh.

They always win.    

Comments

[Stacy Seman]

LOL. I almost had water come out my nose when I read the last picture and lines. LOL!!!

[melissa]

I am stuck in that number rut. How many bites....ugh. I thought I learned my lesson with kid#1..but alas I find myself in the same predicament with kid#2.

[Laura]

My son is a master of negotiation too. Smart thinking on sticking to that grey area and avoiding the numbers. I learned that that hard way as now every dinner is "how many more bites until I can get dessert" constant negotiation!

[Laura]

I'm laughing out loud, as always!!

The numbers thing is indeed great when little... not so much when they're clever little buggers :P [hubby hasn't quite caught onto this yet, sigh].

Aren't they great at keeping us on our toes?!

[Sarah]

UGH, they do always win don't they?!

My eldest is just starting to understand numbers so I will try your no numbers. I know it will only last a while but I'll feel like the "Oh-so-powerful-being" while it lasts!!

http://mystickfamily.blogspot.com/

[AngelaW]

LMFAO at that last picture! So fricken funny!

[valleygirl]

I do numbers....but I give them with plenty of room for negotiation. On a good day my daughter might actually eat 10 more bites of her food. But otherwise I'll settle for 5. ;)

[Cass]

Totally relating here! I loved it when my kids would do the "do you want 5 cookies?" "No, three!" thing. Ahhh... is it evil to laugh at your kids? I hope not.

[AngelaW]

We are stuck in this rut too. I wish I never would have gone there.

[Misty]

When do our kids start listening to us without long-winded negotiations? And don't tell me "never" because I may run down the street screaming!! :)

[Lauren]

My mom (and some family friends) love to tell the story of how I was sent to my room when I was two and told to count to 10 before I came out. My ever defiant response was: "No, 20!" They all said that they were rolling on the floor laughing, but trying to do it silently for fear of me hearing.

[Lee Etheridge]

I use HALF a lot (there are 2 of them) clean up half the room, eat up half your potato... funny how half of crappy stuff is always smaller than half of good stuff... Can I have half a biscuit?

[Lisa]

Numbers are dangerous when they get older too. Just 10 more minutes... But the other kids get to stay out until midnight... Better to get rid of the number thing now. I go with a theory along the lines of, if you want to negotiate, I can always make it worse that the original offer until you cave.

[JustSayin]

^ It annoys me when people try to poach traffic by putting their blog address in the comment. Seems spammy.

[AngelaW]

lol that is great!

[Amy]

Oh my goodness, I'm new here and I am just loving your blog. So hilarious, I actually laughed out loud!

[Kathy]

I would just confuse my kids. I would tell them "5 more bites." they would say "3" I would say "8". I would get "the look", a sigh, and "OK, mom, I'll eat 5 bites."
Go UP, not down.

[rachael]

after earning the hard way we've replaced numbers with "until i say you've had/done/etc. enough"... but they still try. every. freaking. time.

[Barbara]

I do the same thing, Kathy. It doesn't always yield the desired effect, but I'm hoping it will if I'm persistent.

[kim]

Haha! That brings back memories! My daughter spends about a week w/ my sister every summer. I'm a single mom and I struggle and she helps out so much - she takes daughter to the dentist & school shopping, etc. This has become a summer tradition they all enjoy.

Daughter was little, and aunt wanted to get her hair cut. Daughter not so much. According to my sister, conversation when like this:

Aunt: Let's go get your hair cut.
Neice(my Daughter): No, I don't want to.
Aunt: I'll give you 5 dollars.
Neice: Nah
Aunt: Okay. I'll give you 20 dollars.
Neice: Hmm, nope.
Aunt: Know what? If you get your hair cut, I'll give you 100 DOLLARS! (my sister has a lot of money and no kids. lol)
Neice: No, I don't want to.
Aunt: Okay. Tell you what. If we go get your hair cut, I'll get you a bag of candy...
Neice: O.Kay!!! Let's go!!

My daughter's a teen now. She still can't believe that she turned down $100 to get her hair cut...

[Sarah Johnson]

You were freaking BORN to write/illustrate like this. I'm having a terrible day at work, felt the need to break/collect myself & thought OH! Let me just check out that Amber Crappy Pictures blog.. she always hits the nail on the head comedy wise. Sure enough, here you are, living a life just like mine with 2 kids <3 who walk/run different directions constantly. Anyhow, just wanted to say THANKS! You made me feel MUCH better. ;)

[mmm hmmm]

I second that.

[Katherine]

Hmmmm..... seems like this is YOUR fault. For, you know, teaching them to count and all..... What where you thinking??? Lol. ;)

I LOVE your posts

[So what?]

Really? I think of it as sharing. People who like the same blog I do also have blogs that I might want to read. She's not selling cheap Viagra.

[Niki]

My almost-five-year-old is into negotiating. Except when she goes down, I go up. Her: How many bites before I can have a treat? Me: 10. Her: What about 3? Me: How about 15? Her: 7? Me: 20. Her: Okay, I'll take 10.

[Luna]

LOL I regret to inform you that Lisa is correct, they do it even when they're older. My daughter is 13 and STILL tries to negotiate with numbers. Even doing *dishes* she tries to use approximations to negotiate. "If I do this many, can I have/do this?" It's quite obnoxious, but sometimes hilarious when she gets a worse deal than she would have had otherwise. Haha!

[Bridget]

If there's a space for it in the comments area I would say the blog maker says it's ok...duh!

[Lauren]

with the how many more bites at dinner I always start off with a higher number than I would really like them to eat so that once they give me their negotiated number it is usually around what I am good with and they feel like they have made a good choice.

[HeatherB]

Love this post. We've had snickers over those kind of negotiations - I love it when they offer less than what you were willing to give! Sadly, that stage lasts only so long...

[Bonnie]

Too cute...as I'm reading your post my four year old asks for one more sip of root beer. I tell him to go ahead. Then he says, "Can I have 2 more?" I'm trying to concentrate on reading your post so I agree so he have root beer in his mouth..which makes him quiet. Then he says, "How about 3 more?"

[twisterfish]

That's exactly what I do! Kids hate it! I win!

[Amber]

if i asked my son if he wanted five cookies he would probably hug me. i'm kind of a cookie nazi lol

[Hyacinth]

Oh, Mrs. Crappy! If you are losing at negotiating it's because you're going about it all wrong. My kids learned early on that it was futile to negotiate with Mom. When my daughter was in high school, we helped with the church Vacation Bible School. I related to daughter about a little girl who asked me if we could leave the session early to go to the next session. I said to little girl, "You may leave three minutes early." Little girl responded (as little girls do), "May we leave five minutes early?" My daughter started laughing! She knew what was coming because she had experienced it from a young age ... I responded to little girl, "You may leave one minute early." Little girl was floored! But THAT's how Mom negotiates. My first offer is always my best offer. Better grab it while it's out there!!! (Love love love your blog!)

[Gretchen]

That is hilarious! My almost 5 yr old boy is a negotiator, too, especially when it comes to helping clean. He''' say "But Mommyyyyyyy, it's so big!" meaning the mess is enormous; never mind that it is his own doing. Some things are definitely universal.

[kella]

Love it :)

[Gage]

love your blog, help keeps me sane in my insane world. thank you!!

[Carrie]

My son is only 14 months and is starting to be VERY willful... throwing food, HITTING me (!!), letting water dribble down the front of him (soaking his clothes/pjs resulting in 3 clothing changes a day!), etc. He cant count but this may be the behavioral equivalent of being defiant to his own detriment... yesterday he was violently throwing toys, sippy cups, etc, because he didn't want to put on his pjs and his final projectile was his MUCH BELOVED binky which he took out of his mouth and pelted at me. Mind you, he is only allowed a binky in bed so it was a special dispensation to even have it in the first place (DH caved) but you could see the thought pop into his head as the binky was leaving his hand, "WAAAIIIITTT... do over?" AHHHH HAAAA HAAAA! Evil laugh!

I am sure that's the last time he will make that mistake.

[seashells]

My son...always the negotiator......when I asked him to clean his room and he didn't want to and we were negotiating back and forth as to who was going to do it, he said to me..."well mom, if you didn't buy me so many toys there wouldn't be so many to clean up!" I responded with "If you have so many you can't pick them up we'll quit buying toys AND give away the ones you don't get picked up!" He picked up all of them! Mom 1 Kid 0

[Barbara]

ah but in the end you know it is a great skill to have. One day he will have to negotiate that salary raise with his boss so be happy knowing you are teaching him (them) well

[Kate]

I use numbers to my advantage with the older kids. If I want them to clean up (or whatever) in 15 minutes I say, "Clean up in 15." They always respond with a larger number... "Can we have 30?" So I renegotiate and say, "You can have 10." When they cry that it isn't fair, I tell them they should have stuck with my original number. The number arguments stopped pretty quickly after that. Crappy Boy is probably still too young for this tactic.

[Karla]

I love the numbers game--my daughter is the queen of taking the worse deal!

[cindy]

ROTFL!!! Smart Baby!!!

[PartlySunny]

Sounds like you may be raising one future lawyer and one future businessman. Which would at least be good for your retirement.;)

And thanks again for the mental boost the other day.

[www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=757219327]

Our toy negotiation goes something like this...
me "kids tidy up the room please"
them " we don't want to"
me "either you tidy them up and they get put away, or I tidy them up and they go in the bin"

generally pretty effective, except with our daughter, who waits until you actually start throwing stuff in the rubbish bag to go in the bin, and then starts screaming and then starts putting things away. Everytime. One day she will work out that when mummy says she will throw it out, mummy WILL throw it out.

[Dan]

Numbers backfire when your dad is a math guy. I always answer in irrational terms "The square root of 2 over Pi times 3"

Then he goes "Pie? YAY!" and runs into the kitchen.

[Nachomama]

Agreed. Plus, look at the blog posts. It seems to be a knockoff of crappy's ideas. My stick family? Get original, please!

[Nat]

Mine is still at the 'no' stage, but it is fun to mess with his head a little. '
Me: 'Do you want another biscuit?'
Him: 'Nooooo'

Bad Mummy. Hehehehe

[Proneeta]

When I think my son has had enough of anything and say, "No more," to him, he negotiates by saying, "Please mummy, last time." I give in and give him another and then say enough and then he's like, "Many last time." He finally stops after he's used up "last time last time." Lol.....

[Kimberly]

LOVE it. Kids are so darn clever and CUTE. Love your blog.

[Natalie]

I HATE the negotiations!!!!! I thought they would go away when my daughter left the terrible twos but am realizing they're not going anywhere. I am just now starting to learn how to avoid them.

We do use the numbers at dinnertime, but it's what she has to eat in order to get down from the table, not how she can "earn" dessert. We have dessert some nights, but not every night, so even though she asks for it most nights it is not always an option.

[Molly]

Numbers work good for my (almost)4-year old daughter, as her poor negotiation skills work to my advantage :)
Her: Mom, can I be done eating? (this is asked after she has only stared at her plate full of food)
Me: How about you eat just 2 more pieces of your chicken?
Her: Or how about 5?!
Me: Oh, maaannn... I guess 5 is okay. Alright, let me see you eat them.
She starts counting as she eats her pieces. After she finishes the five she asks, "How about 10?!"
Me: That sounds like a great idea.
Dinner gets eaten. Daughter "wins". Mommy happy. The end :)

By the way, I LOVE your blog! Thanks for putting my life into words for me :D

[stephanie]

I burst out laughing at that last photo. Smart little guy, isn't he?

[CA MOM OF FOUR]

LOVE It~!~

[CA MOM OF FOUR]

Mine are getting older now and love to negoitate.
UGH! If I do this, can I have that? Well,,if I do the dishes....then I don't have to do anything else?

Or my favorite: This is the LAST store we are going in right>? And you only need ONE thing? !~~~~~~~~~

How? Where? I remember just going with my parents and doing what they said until I was old enough to drive myself........!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[CA MOM OF FOUR]

PS I just had to comment on the store thing.
THAT WAS THE FIRST STORE WE WENT INTO and my son says:
THIS IS THE LAST STORE WE ARE GOING INTO, RIGHT? And you are only buying such and such right? (He asks what I am buying BEFORE we enter the store!! He must get his instructions from his father lol..........not a store lover.....crazy!!)

[leslie]

I offered to pay my 8 year old a quarter to vacuum his room (I never should have offered him money to clean his own room). He responded "How about I pay YOU a quarter to vacuum my room?" AAAHH!

[Jessica]

Love this. Just found your blog & started following. It's great. The pictures are awesome. Thanks for sharing.

[Robyn]

In our house, if we have to give them a number of bites then they don't get dessert. Dessert is for eating really well. The number of bites is for eating "enough".

[Robyn]

I'm apparently bad about negotiating too. I tell my son (3) he needs to pick up his toys. He doesn't want to. Doesn't ask how much he needs to pick up, just he doesn't want to. I finally tell him that if he doesn't pick up his toys, he's going to lose them (which means that Mommy picks them up and they get taken away, often for weeks at a time). When I again tell him to pick up his toys he asks "Can I lose them?"

[Lori]

Where's the "like" button?

[hope]

Thanks for making my insomnia worthwhile.

[Sorrytobethedownermama]

My kids never ask how much they need to eat, because my answer is always the same: until your body tells you that you are done. About once a week or so, they get a small portion of dessert, whether they ate dinner or not. It is no big deal. Other nights we have a fruit snack later. Fruit and veggies are always availiable as options for hungry kids who chose not to eat a meal.

Forced eating and food as reward = adult obesity. Think about it. And meals are so easy with no food battles! I choose to feed them healthy food and when to eat, and they choose how much to eat and if they want to eat it.

Love your posts, btw. So funny.

[A Morning Grouch]

Hahaha sounds like you'll have your hands full when they are teenagers and their negotiation skills keep getting better!

[Erin]

This cookie counting strategy worked for me until my five year old would interject for the 2 year old and tell him that he wants 5 cookies because 5 is bigger. Now he knows the truth. Heaven help us all.

[Stefanie Gott-Dinsmore]

Y, I had to cut out numbers too!

[Katherine]

In our family, the negotiations were known as "grinding", as grinding down like the action of a mill stone, because kids are that persistant. It got to the point that when the negotiations, or pestering got too much, we just had to look at them and say, "you're grinding!" and they knew they were busted. And Stopped! with a sheepish look on their face. This post totally reminded me of all that.

[Tricia]

My baby is 11 mo and not old enough to negotiate yet...well, not explicitly. She says MMM, MMM, MMmm, mmmmmmmmmm and looks longingly at the item she wants to try to get more raisins or Cheerios or puffs. She knows the ASL sign for "more" and uses that copiously too. I might give her something else to balance her meal out a bit, and she might eat it...but the whole time she's going "Mmm, mmm, mMMMMM, MMM" and looking at the raisins or cheerios or whatever. Negotiator-in-training.

[Darren]

I know if I say a number there will be negotiations over that number.

[Tessa]

This is so, still, my 10 & 12yo's. It never works, but they still try it any way.

[Gary]

Your kids are clever.

[Lisa]

Obviously running across this late, but for the record, my (then) four year old (now five, ooh, big difference!!!) would tell me he wanted "some" or "a lot". Always a non-quantifiable.

But that tricky school went and taught him math. So now it's oh so specific, lol.

LOVE your blog!